Okay. The last few days I've been tossing around the idea of going to a methanol/water injector kit. A heard about a kit a few months back from Dan Labonte of Team 3S that was made for our cars. After spending a little time trying to tune my car recently, I realize I'm not going to be able to run much more than 14 or 15 psi on straight pump gas. Right now, all I can run is 10psi until I get timing/tune figured out.

Since I don't feel like running race gas constantly, I started looking at alternatives. So far, I like the following two:

http://www.3si.org/forum/showthread.php?t=257435 (current group buy)
http://www.3si.org/forum/showthread.php?t=236853 (first group buy)

or

http://www.3si.org/forum/showthread.php?t=266707

The Snow Performance kit is nearly twice as pricey, but I get a better fuzzy feeling about it as opposed to the Lightweight kit. Methanol/water injection seems to be pretty tits. Numerous people running 20-25psi on pump gas with the kits. That's impressive.

I dont think I'll be happy hitting only 15psi on the street if I'm running straight pump gas. Not that my car will be driven much, if ever, lol, but still... I don't want to have to tell people I'm giving rides to, "Uh, it'd feel a lot faster with race gas."

Greg,
If I'm understanding these kits correctly, with the arc-2, I'd have to lean it out a click or two to compensate for the W/M mix being injected, or else I'd be running extremely rich at WOT *when* the W/M mix started spraying. That being the case, turning the arc-2 a click or two lower on the high setting will also cause the ECU to see more load, so less timing, which should allow for more boost, plus more boost on top of it from characteristics of the W/M mix itself (higher octane). That sound right? Overall, it sounds to be very effective at controlling knock and allowing more boost. I just wonder how difficult it is to tune/control.

Thoughts?

J

edit: good info here - http://www.snowperformance.net/

_________________

Best in Show - NG07
2010 - 6G74/3.5L E16Gs - 688awhp/679awtq (Race+Meth)
2011 - 6G74/3.5L 68HTAs - 740awhp/762awtq (Race+Meth)
2013 - 6G74/3.5L MTC Stage4 - 908awhp/832awtq (Race+Meth)

These types of comments really make me want to buy this...

***From Rustang Cobra in 3SI***
"well i just got in from doing a lil tuning

i set the W/M to come on at 6 and full speed at 12psi

before the W/M at 15 psi on my current tune i was getting 8 counts of knock at and above 5000rpm with around 26* total timing being pulled to 20* gradually

after W/M im at 16psi with no knock ANYWHERE, 96% max IDC on stock 360ccs and i hit total timing of 30* by 5000rpm about 33* at 6000rpm!

ill chime back in when i hotwire my walbro

then ill check back in once i install my evo8 injectors

but right now i recommend the snow performance kit to all...

oh yea and the window washer fluid i was using was the yellow stuff made by prestone

its de-icer thats good down to -34* i checked msds sheets and its about 40% meth/ 60% water"

Also,

"well i just got back from tuning i went from 1.13 bar with no water/meth and no knock with .95 across the board 29* max

then i upped the boost to 1.19 bar with the water/meth kicking in at 5psi and no knock with .89 across the board with 35* max timing

the car feels insanely faster with the water/meth spraying....i went out with a 3/4 washer fluid tank and its still above 1/2 full after 10 or more 3rd and 4th gear pulls"

---------------------------------

***From GT on 3SI***
"Just got my kit installed and tested last night.

First run, Didn't change anything with the tune just added the alcohol to see what the effect would be. I'm running the 625cc nozzle with a 50/50 mix of water/methanol. Set the controller to come on at 8psi, and max at 20. Previous tune was running about 11.5-11.7 A/F under full boost (about 10.5 psi now). Car absolutely fell on its face... got down to 10.0 A/F, and actually started to have rich misfires... Ok time to lean it out a bit. Took out a couple percent of fuel and reset the contoller to 8, and 25 to reduce the W/M flow a little. Much better, but still pretty rich, and short on power. Kept leaning it out all the way up to a 12.5/1 AFR (Took out around 15% fuel in the end), and also advanced the timing 3 degree's or so.... It was incredible, I think on the last change I picked up easily 50HP without even touching the boost... feels great at only 10psi. Tuned up to about 14psi to redline, and 16psi peak... its far faster than it was before, even at 14psi to redline I was still running right around 12.5 to 1, without a hint of knock once the W/M came on. Only problem I ran into was I'd get knock sometimes when the boost built quickly, I solved the problem by bringing the start of the controller down to about 5psi, but I think the boost is forcing some of the W/M back through the pump. Oh yea, EGT's are down from 970c to 895C. Overall very impressive results so far, I was at the complete ragged edge of knock before, and I was able to lean it out from 11.5-11.7/1 to 1 to 12.3-12.5/1, increase timing 3 degree's, and up the boost by nearly 3 psi. Still need to do some more tuning to find the limits."

_________________

Best in Show - NG07
2010 - 6G74/3.5L E16Gs - 688awhp/679awtq (Race+Meth)
2011 - 6G74/3.5L 68HTAs - 740awhp/762awtq (Race+Meth)
2013 - 6G74/3.5L MTC Stage4 - 908awhp/832awtq (Race+Meth)

Who told you that? I honestly don't have any 1st hand experience using WI, so take my advise for what it's worth. The way I understand it (simply put) is you actually run leaner from the cooler air temps (cooler air is denser), therefore, you'd have to richen the mixture a little. It's almost like putting on larger innercoolers.

That lightweight kit looks like something I can build myself, but it looks like he uses quality pieces. His kit doesn't come with an LED or some kind of light which lets you know when the WI is active either. Wonder what size spray nozzle his comes with. Even if I did have the $$ right now, I don't think I'm would jump on his GB. Better to wait and see what others have to say about buying from him and how his kit works.

Never heard of snowperfomance before either, but I like their variable controller and that it comes with different nozzles depending on your application/power. Little bit cheeper than aquamist too.

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06 Blue EVO 9

It's what I gathered from reading 40+ pages of this junk,hehe.

It makes sense though. If you continue spraying the same amount of fuel in your cylinders PLUS now add a w/m mix, you'll drown your engine with fuel.

Plus, look here: http://www.snowperformance.net/files/ga ... lation.pdf

If you run for example, 16-20psi of boost, then 20% of the normal fuel under boost pressure should be replaced with W/M. Not added, replaced.

So yea, you CAN run leaner, but only because you are the one who removes fuel through an a/f controller (afc, arc2, etc.). You CAN also run leaner because of the higher octane. But, merely adding W/M without adjusting your fuel settings does not make you run leaner. It will choke your engine from what I've read.

At least as far as I can tell from my readings... Check it out again and let me know your thoughts. We'll figure this out together.

So far I'm leaning towards Dan Labonte's Snow Performance setup. Seems proven in MANY applications (not just 3/S').

Let me know what you think about the lean/rich thing after you've read up a little... This is still new to me too.

_________________

Best in Show - NG07
2010 - 6G74/3.5L E16Gs - 688awhp/679awtq (Race+Meth)
2011 - 6G74/3.5L 68HTAs - 740awhp/762awtq (Race+Meth)
2013 - 6G74/3.5L MTC Stage4 - 908awhp/832awtq (Race+Meth)

I agree with greg in the rich/lean settings. I wouldn't think that 40% fuel from one 6XX sixed injector is much at all. Plus you get more air per intake charge being it's colder. Only seeing the O2 readings would tell you that. If I were to get this it would have to be progressive, not just on/off like some kits are. That has to make a nasty lean/rich spot on the A/F ratio.

Have you also looked into Propane? Cold charge~added octane. only need to fill it once a month! I thought that Prestone has stuff in it that you don't want to run through your engine... I thought I came across that on a grand national site when I was looking into methanol injection. at 60~40 your mainly looking for cooling the charge with a little added fuel...

but I'm like greg, haven't actually tried it. Just from my own research.

refresh my memory again...

You have DR650s with all the piping to and from. You have a mean nasty maf. you have ported heads, and a carbon fiber drive shaft. cam gears. other fun stuff that I'm sure that I've left out. Also everything is chromed, polished, painted, or licked clean.

This car has graduated well beyond the realm of daily driver. This car has past well into weekend warrior/obsession.

If I had that mod list nothing would see the inside of my gas tank BUT race gas. I would have a 55 gallon drum in my garage with a nozzle on top. I would have two spare o2 sensors just chillin' on my spare parts rack. It's like having a supermodel girlfriend and telling her that she can only have water at a resteurant. But you'll get her a lemon to flavor it...

Race gas is the stuff that GOD intended us to have. Hippies sent by Satan are the reason that you have to buy 93 octane.

methonal/water injection = substitute for race gas.

That's just me though, and my opinion and a buck eighty nine will get you a cup of coffee at starbucks.

_________________
Bad decisions make good stories.
Look at it! LOOK AT MY @SS AND TELL ME IT'S PRETTY!

Just thought about it a bit more... one 6XX sized injector that is constantly on above a certain PSI, so that would add more fuel... hmmmmm.....

_________________
Bad decisions make good stories.
Look at it! LOOK AT MY @SS AND TELL ME IT'S PRETTY!

If there was a pump locally that would give me 110oct, that's what I'd run in my car all the time, but there's not so I need to find a substitute. I don't have $500 to drop on a barrel either right now.

Jesse, now that I think about it, you're right. Alcohol is a fuel, therefore, you'd run richer.

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06 Blue EVO 9

Adam,
Hehe. Hence my confusion as well right now.

The thing is, I would use a 625ml injector. But, that injector is rated when the pump is at 60psi. The pump in the kit can be used up to 140psi. For 680cc injectors, I would need to dump this much W/M for this level of boost:

16-20psi = 816ml of W/M injection (4080ml*.20)
21-25psi = 897ml of W/M injection (4080ml*.22)

816-897 could only be achieved by running 2 injectors at 60psi (for instance, a 625ml and 325mlo together), OR by running a single 625ml with increased pump pressure from 60psi up to 100psi or so. According to Dan, that would work well for me around 20-22psi of boost.

That's a LOT of w/m being added to the overall picture when the total amount of possible fuel is only 4080ml with my injectors. So that's why I still think adding 800+ml of W/M to your tune, WITHOUT adjusting for the increased fuel (w/m) would cause you to be very rich.

Tell me if I'm wrong. I make NO claims to have this figured out yet. hehe.

Race gas all the time? Damn dude. I don't have money trees growing in my backyard. I need to buy a freaking Dryer for my clothes yet.

_________________

Best in Show - NG07
2010 - 6G74/3.5L E16Gs - 688awhp/679awtq (Race+Meth)
2011 - 6G74/3.5L 68HTAs - 740awhp/762awtq (Race+Meth)
2013 - 6G74/3.5L MTC Stage4 - 908awhp/832awtq (Race+Meth)

If the math is correct then that means you're going to need to lean it out more than just one click on the ARC. That's 20% more fuel = 4 clicks. Wow, that's a lot!

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06 Blue EVO 9

another good thread to read up on Jesse:

http://www.3si.org/forum/showthread.php?t=267755

There is also some good threads on us3s about propane. search for propane, or detpac. he had the system in his car for a while before he went vette. he liked it alot. injected into y-pipe at -40 degrees, 120 octane, and a 5 lb tank lasts about 5 tanks of gas. at 12 bucks a tank. plus then we can have cookouts in the back off your car... wait... nevermind.



just wait til your plating biz takes off.



start a plating biz, then wait until it takes off...

_________________
Bad decisions make good stories.
Look at it! LOOK AT MY @SS AND TELL ME IT'S PRETTY!

Coarse, this depends on what water-to-meth mixure you're going to run.

From what I gather:

Meth/Alchy = more fuel
Water = cooler air.



LOL Adam

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06 Blue EVO 9

..

I completely agree with Jeff. The car will not be driven much. See if you enjoy it this way. I also agree with him on watching other people, and waiting to see how there tuning goes. I don't think it will be that bad, unless you are fighting with your timing way more than now.

Plus race gas smells good...

_________________
Bad decisions make good stories.
Look at it! LOOK AT MY @SS AND TELL ME IT'S PRETTY!

Jeff and Matt are trying to get me to just run race gas. Hmm. Well, we'll see. Waiting to talk with Adam about the secret junahopper radiclapper project.

_________________

Best in Show - NG07
2010 - 6G74/3.5L E16Gs - 688awhp/679awtq (Race+Meth)
2011 - 6G74/3.5L 68HTAs - 740awhp/762awtq (Race+Meth)
2013 - 6G74/3.5L MTC Stage4 - 908awhp/832awtq (Race+Meth)

..