Car goes in by Matt's Tomorrow.

We are doing the first part by his house, So I'm gonna fly solo for now, 'til we get a bit more into it. (Just pulling stuff off right now. again.)

I'm running with a PT-61 found here
http://www.precisionturbo.net/turbochar ... ry_id=3027

should be here by the middle of the week.

we'll be CNC machining the flanges for the headers to the block. then making the pipe to the turbo.

I'm gonna say piss on equal length headers for now. With any luck the turbo will sit about where the front turbo is now. the rear exhaust will wrap down and under the oil pan, then up into the turbo. So it comes apart easy I'll be using two of these:
http://www.burnsstainless.com/Hardware/ ... lamps.html

I've got a sparco-type bar and plate front mount intercooler on the way.

Also looking into a different blow off valve.

I still haven't decided on the waste gate to use yet, but I have to get on that. I'm thinking a 48 mm tial.

Then we'll make a downpipe, and hook everything up.

I'm also gonna make a new oil cooler and mount it in the same spot (I won't have sidemounts to block it then.) to keep the oil temps down from the exhaust running under the pan. twice...

Possible gonna have to do something with the fans and radiators... not sure what yet. I'll let you guys know how it goes.



Hopefully I won't get sick of this turbo after one year... The guy from precision says that it's a fairly mean turbo... but it's his job to sell them... the good news is I can upgrade pretty easy...

If all goes well, the next step after testing this turbo and header set up will be building the engine, and nitrous. but's thats quite a ways off. unless I blow it up...



As for fundamentals... I don't need them ~

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Bad decisions make good stories.
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Sweet.
I think that is the same tubo IPO used on his single. What A/R are you using?
You could pull the pan and weld on some stand offs for a heat shield, or don't you think you'll have enough clearence.

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'94 vr4- Now with extra slowness

It better be a tial.

Let me know if you need help with those plastic weather guard screws.

Car is by matt's on jack stands.

He is impressed by the amount of "stuff" under the hood.

Going back tonight to continue pulling stuff. I ran out of baggies and post its last night.

I did get an extra bed for my house though.

Progress was also slow due to lisa having surgery, and I had to go play the good boyfriend.

My keyless entry battery is dead, also.

That is all.

_________________
Bad decisions make good stories.
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sorry, missed this question.

.68 A/R ratio. apparently this is a popular buick turbo. and we all know how slow those ol' GNs are.

I believe it's a bit smaller than IPO's single, though.

I'm gonna run without heat sheilds. that way greg can hate everything about this car.

I think with a good jetcoat it will actually be cooler than the stock downpipe running across the oil pan in the same spot... think being the key word!



2 points for the mad scientist.

I have a tial 38mm wastegate and I'm going to get a tial bov.

anyone want a slightly used greddy?


DR500s are off the car. I'll now not sure if I'll send them both in. the front one does not have much play... at least almost none compared to the back one! I wonder if the rear one just had an oiless moment from start up.

Greg, remember I just douced the turbo with oil, and we didn't spin the engine over til we got oil pressure before starting it?

i dunno. we left it idle for quite a while... I don't think that would hurt a turbo, but with the teeeeeeeeeny tiiiiiiiiiiiiiny td04 shafts I guess anything is possible.

anyone want to feel up my turbos???

Matt should be making the flanges for the heads to headers later this week. CNC'ed. I like.

we may move the turbo from it's proposed location...

we'll have to see. Turbo is inbound. suppose to be here tomorrow. At latest Monday.

Denny Crane.

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Bad decisions make good stories.
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I doubt it. Maybe it got damaged from gas in the oil

...or maybe that the compressor surge was greater for the rear turbo over the front. Topic to think about when I get more time.

maybe the turbo was on it's last leg when we put it in?

Jesse bought them used.

the rear intercooler piping is sooping with oil, though.

FTRT.

f*ck the rear turbo.

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Bad decisions make good stories.
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It didn't have any shaft play when I was looking them over at Jesse's before you got them.

Have you even talked to Matt M about getting a deal on the rebuild? He did say he'd warrenty them, but I think that was when Jesse still had them.

and I am not jesse. plus I realise that I have beat the tar out of them. I'm not worried about the warranty. I would like to know what killed them, however.

I'll prolly just send them both in. that way I don't have to worry about selling someone a bad turbo.

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Bad decisions make good stories.
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Just so there's no confusion. When I bought those DR500s from Ty at Speedfactor, he said they had very few miles on them, IIRC, it was either 500 miles or 2000 miles.

I remember Ty also told me that Matt would warranty them since they were so new and purchased directly from Ty. And that if Matt gave me any grief about them, that I should talk to Ty and he'd take care of it. That was the jist of the warranty chit-chat I had with him.

My best guess says Matt will laugh if you ask him to warranty them. Getting DR to admit their turbos are defective is like pulling teeth from the numerous people I've spoke with about certain situations.

JR

This is correct. They had the stuffing beat out of them.

although they still have low miles.

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Alright, lets talk about this.

Possible causes of death:
Gas saturated oil during initial tuning runs
Compressor surge
Misballancing (and running them at 23psi)


How could we figure out which killed it? Here's my take

Gas in oil - We immediately drove the car home when the lifters were ticking and did not boost after that tuning run. Honestly, I think if this did the turbo in, the results would have been more immediate and not shown themselves 1500-2000 miles later. The exposure was very short.

I'm not sure which turbo gets oil 1st, (or is closest to the oil pump), but I'd assume the other turbo would show signs of warping too if the oil was saturated that bad. More importantly, why would the 120K old bearings in the motor out-last the brand new bearings in the turbo???

A test would be a visual inspection of the brass thrust bearing and steel bushing for warping/heat. NOTE: There are 2 steel bushing. One for the exhaust side, one for the compressor side. Remember this for later.


Compessor surge - It only happened at low boost (<5psi), however, the BOV was operating normally under higher levels. Adam, which nipple did you hook the BOV to? The y pipe?

If so, then the results would be just a delay in the time it would take for the BOV to open. The delay is the time it takes for the motor to suck in the air in the pipes before you get vaccum again which opens the BOV. The surging noise is the air being forced back to the turbos.

This puts excess strain on the compressor wheel which wears the steel bushings out faster. I assume if compressor surge killed the turbo, there would be noticable damage to the compressor side steel bushing and not the exhaust side.

Once again, why just the rear turbo and not the front? Does anyone know which turbo has shorter innercooler pipes? I assume the one farther away from the throttle body would experience the surge longer thus wearing it out faster?

Adam, I still stand by my comment that short term/low boost compressor surge does NOT wear a turbo out THAT quickly. There are cars out there that run 6psi and don't even have BOVs.


Misbalancing - You'd be looking at a completely mangled turbo. With the turbo removed, the shaft would move both up and down as well as in and out. There could possibly be visable damage to both wheels and everything inside (shaft, bushing, and bearings (thrust and center)) would be worn from the wheels moving while spinning at such a high RPM. Eventually, one wheel would have broken off and been shot in a place where you don't want it.

This would explain why just the rear turbo is damaged and not the front.

In conclusion, I think if we opened them up and started examining things for ourselves, Matt will not accept them. The unfortunate truth is we'd have to rely on the honesty of the machine shop he has contracted and wait several weeks for him to get back to us.

Once again, this whole post is just my opinion and I have no idea how much water it really holds. Hopefully a more knowledable person can chime in.

1) Gas saturated.
I highly doubt this one. simple reason of both turbos should be shot, and the rear is noticably worse than the front. and throwing more oil.

2) Compressor surge
I dunno. one would think both turbos would be worse for wear from this. Could be the front just doesn't "feel" as bad, but is on it's way out...

But one point for this cause of death is the fact that we know my car HAD surge.

3) Misballancing (and running them at 23psi)
I guess hadn't really thought about this one. I mean, they could have been balanced for 17 psi on a 3 liter engine. by spinning them fast enough for 22 psi there was probably a massive overspeed going on. even a little deviation on balancing when we are talking hundreds of thousands of rpm can be catastrophic in a hurry.

Also you left out a 4th possibilty.

4) user neglect.
shuting down my engine without proper cool down.
boosting without proper warm up time.
trying to squeese out and extra 5 psi out of a turbo that was not ment for it.

I mean I'm not sure if I let my car idle for 10 minutes after boosting every time.

I tried not to just shut off the engine directly after a pissing match, but I'm not sure what the turbine temps were every time I turned the car off.

or a combination of all of the above...

In the end, who cares. I know I used them hard. I didn't ask for a warranty. I am willing to pay for them to be rebuilt. I'm just curious as to what killed them 'cause I think that knowledge would be useful for people. either to help protect turbos or help people diagnose problems, or to help make an informed buying decision based on boost they want to run.

If your not breaking stuff, your not going fast enough.

_________________
Bad decisions make good stories.
Look at it! LOOK AT MY @SS AND TELL ME IT'S PRETTY!

When you pull the turbo, check the lines for carbon "chunks".

"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough."

Mario Andretti